- From: Jim Hendler <[email protected]>
- Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 19:11:48 -0400
- To: webont <[email protected]>
- Message-Id: <p05111717b90de192dc4f@[10.0.1.4]>
ACTIONS ACTION - 5/23 Dan Connolly will set up f2f registration page ACTION - chairs - work out how/when we will have telecon call in for f2f\ ACTION - 5/23 hayes, wallace to review UML document-- welty done ACTION - 5/23 Nick Gibbins to draft a proposed response from WOWG to the RDFS schema document ACTION - 5/23 Deb McGuinness editing"level "1 document for external release (as WD) RESOLVED: To release as soon as possible two documents to the public: 1. one document describing a named subset of language features, along the lines of Deborah's proposal. (NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to use to refer to this named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. ). 2. a second document describing the full set of language features (Scribe notes that it was note determined as to whether this second document should be the DAML+OIL document or whether that should be a separate document) -------- Full log Log file opened at: 5/16/02 11:56:13 AM 11:56 AM: #webont: jhendler RRSAgent Zakim DanC laurentO schreiber @logger_1 11:56 AM: *** End of /NAMES list. 11:56 AM: *** Channel Mode is + 11:56 AM: DanC: any scribe volunteers for today? 11:56 AM: Zakim: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started 11:57 AM: Zakim: +DanC 11:57 AM: Zakim: +??P9 11:58 AM: schreiber: ??P9 is GuusS 11:58 AM: nmg: hi 11:58 AM: schreiber: Zakim, ??P9 is GuusS 11:58 AM: Zakim: +GuusS; got it 11:59 AM: Zakim: +Evan.Wallace 11:59 AM: Zakim: +SDecker 11:59 AM: Zakim: +??P25 11:59 AM: DanC: Zakim, ??P25 is PeterPS 11:59 AM: Zakim: +PeterPS; got it 11:59 AM: Zakim: +John.Stanton 11:59 AM: Zakim: +??P28 12:00 PM: Zakim: +JHendler 12:00 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P28 is RudigerK 12:00 PM: Zakim: +RudigerK; got it 12:00 PM: Zakim: -JHendler 12:00 PM: Zakim: +NickG 12:00 PM: jhendler: phone problems - back in a minute 12:00 PM: Zakim: +M.Smith 12:01 PM: Zakim: +Ian.Horrocks 12:01 PM: DanC reads Welty on OWL/UML http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0104.html 12:01 PM: nmg: swears the wg members are getting younger... 12:02 PM: Zakim: +??P1 12:02 PM: DanC: Zakim, +??P1 is JosD 12:02 PM: Zakim: sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1' 12:02 PM: Zakim: +??P8 12:02 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P1 is JosD 12:02 PM: Zakim: +JosD; got it 12:02 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P8 is DebM 12:02 PM: Zakim: +DebM; got it 12:02 PM: DanC: Zakim, who's here? 12:02 PM: Zakim: I see DanC, GuusS, Evan.Wallace, SDecker, PeterPS, John.Stanton, RudigerK, NickG, M.Smith, Ian.Horrocks, JosD, DebM 12:03 PM: Zakim: +MDean 12:03 PM: Zakim: +??P15 12:03 PM: Zakim: +JHendler 12:03 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P15 is FrankvH 12:03 PM: Zakim: +FrankvH; got it 12:04 PM: jhendler: zakim, who is here? 12:04 PM: Zakim: I see DanC, GuusS, Evan.Wallace, SDecker, PeterPS, John.Stanton, RudigerK, NickG, M.Smith, Ian.Horrocks, JosD, DebM, MDean, JHendler, FrankvH 12:04 PM: laurentO: Zakim, I'm here Laurent Olivry 12:04 PM: Zakim: I don't understand 'I'm here Laurent Olivry', laurentO. Try /msg Zakim help 12:04 PM: Zakim: +??P10 12:05 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P10 is HermanT 12:05 PM: Zakim: +HermanT; got it 12:05 PM: Zakim: +Marwan.Sabbouh 12:05 PM: jhendler: regrets - from miller, dale, eshelman, heflin, finin, hellman 12:05 PM: jhendler: regrets - obrst 12:06 PM: Zakim: +??P22 12:06 PM: jhendler: f2f - deb suggests people register as soon as possible - there is a link from the webont page 12:06 PM: DanC: Zakim, ??P22 is ChrisW 12:06 PM: Zakim: +ChrisW; got it 12:06 PM: jhendler: because of holiday weekend -- BOOK SOON! 12:07 PM: DanC: Jul ftf page http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html 12:07 PM: jhendler: Deb - registration - Dan is putting this up 12:07 PM: jhendler: ACTION - Dan Connolly will set up f2f registration page 12:09 PM: jhendler: discussion of telecon call in 12:09 PM: jhendler: ACTION - chairs - work out how/when we will have telecon call in for f2f 12:10 PM: jhendler: attempt to mute an echo 12:10 PM: jhendler: --------------- Action review 12:10 PM: DanC dials *0, reaches operator 12:10 PM: Zakim: +Massimo 12:10 PM: DanC: re CVS action, no progress; sorry 12:10 PM: Zakim: +DanC 12:12 PM: jhendler: DanC working on CVS - hopes to get something this week 12:13 PM: jhendler: action on welty, hayes, wallace to review UML -- welty done 12:13 PM: jhendler: evan will send out today 12:13 PM: jhendler: hayes still pending 12:13 PM: jhendler: action on McGuinness - document on level 1 - done and on agenda 12:14 PM: DanC: JosD, I'm looking at mail from Simon to you of 06 May 2002 21:19:50 -0400 12:14 PM: jhendler: action on chair to get rdfs review - done - nick gibbins accepted this 12:15 PM: jhendler: ACTION - Nick Gibbins to draft a RDFS response on current released RDFS WD 12:15 PM: jhendler: [off] proposed - all members of wowg to stop breathing... 12:16 PM: jhendler: Peter and Dan discuss the review process of RDF Core WG drafts -- what about "holes" left open 12:17 PM: jhendler: Nick - I'm reviewing schema document - it doesn't currently have holes. 12:17 PM: jhendler: pfps - primer has holes 12:17 PM: DanC: it's perfectly in order for somebody outside the RDF Core WG to suggest text to fill in the holes in the primer. 12:18 PM: JosD: Dan, I just searched my mail and found nothing, and it wouldn't be the first time that our mail system (Lotus Notes) failed 12:18 PM: DanC: sigh. 12:18 PM: Zakim: + +1.949.380.aaaa 12:19 PM: DanC: ------ WWW2002 debrief, JimH 12:19 PM: jhendler: ACTION (reworded) - Nick Gibbins to draft a proposed response from WOWG to the RDFS schema document 12:19 PM: DanC: Zakim, aaaa is LynnT 12:19 PM: Zakim: +LynnT; got it 12:19 PM: DanC: # WOWG: Ontology awareness increasing Jim Hendler (Wed, May 15 2002) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0111.html 12:20 PM: DanC: JimH: lots of folks at WWW2002 report using DAML+OIL. 12:21 PM: DanC: # WOWG: Presentation at WWW 2002 on Web Ont WG Jim Hendler (Sat, May 11 2002) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002May/0090.html 12:21 PM: DanC: JimH: folks want this WG to say something soon about how DAML+OIL relates to our work product: same coverage? etc. 12:22 PM: DanC: JimH: lots of Semantic Web interest at WWW2002. 12:22 PM: DanC: JosD, is this a good email address to use for you? [email protected] 12:22 PM: DanC: JimH: at the Semantic Web session in the W3C track, it was standing-room-only. (~200 people) 12:23 PM: DanC: JimH: on devday, SemWeb filled a whole room for a whole day. lots of tools/toolkits demoed. check out TAP. 12:23 PM: DanC: dev day notes: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/05/12/2002-05-12.html 12:23 PM: nmg: note to scribe: Dave De Roure (Southampton) is also present on this call 12:23 PM: JosD: No DanC, it is ending with .com [email protected] 12:24 PM: DanC: odd! 12:24 PM: DanC: [scribe missed some bits] 12:24 PM: jhendler: scribe - all you missed was general "Sem Web was popular" 12:25 PM: DanC hands scribe duties back to JimH 12:25 PM: jhendler: also - that Mike Dean and Steffan Staab demoed tools specifically on ontologies 12:26 PM: jhendler: --------------- 12:26 PM: jhendler: 4 - level one document - Deb McGuinness 12:26 PM: jhendler: deb - email coming in - not much of contention with respect to what is included - some features felt to be omitted by some 12:27 PM: jhendler: some issues about wording (property, relation) and some about individuals, literals, etc. 12:27 PM: jhendler: some issues might be added -- local range restrictions and cardinality 12:28 PM: jhendler: Cardinality - currently only "functional roles" (max 1, min 0) -- cannot say min card 1. 12:28 PM: DanC: functional only? not unabiguous? 12:28 PM: jhendler: some level of request for full cardinality 12:29 PM: DanC: what issue are we discussing now? 12:29 PM: jhendler: jimH - at WWW there was a lot of feedback that full cardinality was a need 12:29 PM: jhendler: DanC - we're discussing about Deb's document and cardinalities 12:29 PM: DanC: all our technical discussion is supposed to be issues lodged against DAML+OIL, no? 12:30 PM: jhendler: Deb - Ian has some reasons we might not want full cardinality 12:30 PM: jhendler: Peter - global cardinality not compatible with domains - Ian - w/o local restrictions cardinality is weird 12:30 PM: DanC: perhaps "5.2 Language Compliance Levels" http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#5.2-Language-Compliance-Levels 12:30 PM: jhendler: req. to explain 12:30 PM: jhendler: DanC - yes - this is an action from that that ISSUE 12:32 PM: jhendler: so local restrictions and cardinality 12:33 PM: jhendler: interact -- scope of the names of properties is global, but now we would make the cardinality global. 12:33 PM: jhendler: so if we have "hasfather" and it comes from your namespace, then it also gets your cardinality. 12:34 PM: jhendler: frank - but namespace localization does help this to some extent -- frank:playerNo is different than "every player number" 12:35 PM: jhendler: Ian - says something that scribe doesn't understand at all 12:35 PM: jhendler: Frank agrees w/him 12:35 PM: jhendler: Deb - maybe global cardinalities are bad, local a preference 12:36 PM: jhendler: Dan - well, maybe some things (particularly unambiguous and unique) make sense globally 12:36 PM: jhendler: Deb - yes - maybe 1/0 is okay global 12:41 PM: jhendler: JimH - reports that at W3C was a request for modularization 12:41 PM: DanC: at W3C? at WWW2002, yes? 12:41 PM: jhendler: jimH - oops, I meant WWW2002 12:42 PM: jhendler: Ian - from users they will do what they do - from implementors - they may want a level. 12:42 PM: jhendler: Deb - way we moved forward in Toulousse is to thing about difficulty for tool developers 12:42 PM: DanC: I can believe people wanted something; that doesn't convince me we should give it to them. 12:43 PM: jhendler: Deb - tool developer seems to be a level of abstraction that is worth talking about 12:43 PM: jhendler: DanC - what are tool developers having trouble with? 12:43 PM: jhendler: Frank - total complexity is too hard. 12:44 PM: *** Signoff: Massimo (Ping timeout) 12:45 PM: jhendler: JimH - seems like some people want to use our language with tools separate from a reasoner. 12:46 PM: jhendler: Guus - we actually had a decision about levels that didn't get reported in the minutes 12:46 PM: jhendler: Frank - thinks it at least that strong 12:46 PM: DanC: do not let the record of this telcon disagree with the ftf record. is the ftf record wrong? 12:46 PM: jhendler: Guus - is there anyone who has tremendously strong feelings such a thing would be wrong? 12:47 PM: jhendler: Guus - suggests that the record had it wrong 12:48 PM: jhendler: DanC - argues that this would be costly - because there is should be consensus on something 12:48 PM: jhendler: Deb - not clear that is what we were chartered to do -- full logic is hard to use, why shouldn't people have something easier to use 12:48 PM: jhendler: DanC - can we advance state of art with one thing 12:50 PM: jhendler: Frank/Ian/Guus - layering does seem like we decided it 12:52 PM: jhendler: JimH - believes WG did decide this, also thinks from WWW experience that there is demand for it 12:52 PM: DanC: I still don't see any particular rationale for splitting DAML+OIL 12:52 PM: jhendler: Guus - can people "not live with" this ? 12:52 PM: jhendler: DanC - me. Ian/Peter - don't like, but could live with 12:53 PM: jhendler: Ian - could live with it for consensus, but obviously I don't really like. Jos also in that group 12:53 PM: jhendler: DanC - guess I could live w/it. 12:53 PM: DanC: I could abstain, that is 12:54 PM: jhendler: Mike - is there a corrolary to this that all our other documents/etc need also to be layered? (i.e. semantics) 12:54 PM: jhendler: Frank - it was my impression that this would be "monotonic" in semantics and syntax. 12:55 PM: DanC: it's not at all clear to me that there's something substantially smaller than DAML+OIL that the WG can agree advances the state of the art. 12:55 PM: jhendler: Deb - we worked hard to make sure this was the case in the current language design. 12:56 PM: jhendler: Guus - propose we resolve this by reiterating the consensus from the f2f and recording it now -- as stated in todays agenda item 5 12:56 PM: DanC: "These documents will not contain the actual syntax" ??? 12:56 PM: jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of language features, along 12:56 PM: jhendler: the lines of Deborah's proposal. 12:56 PM: jhendler: NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to use to refer to this 12:56 PM: jhendler: named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. . 12:56 PM: jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of language features 12:56 PM: jhendler: These documents will not contain the actual syntax, but should enable 12:56 PM: jhendler: people from the public to understand what they van expect. 12:57 PM: jhendler: DanC abstains, Jos, PeterPS, Ian 12:57 PM: jhendler: No one objects 12:58 PM: jhendler: RESOLVED - as stated in agenda item 5 - the group resolves to produce 2 documents - one to describe the easier core, the other to extend that to the full document 12:58 PM: DanC: whoa! the question Guus asked did *not* say "These documents will not contain the actual syntax", did it? 12:59 PM: pfps: I also do not think that the RESOLVED matches the question. 12:59 PM: jhendler Dan - as written - but I think we are talking about WDs for now, not eventual goals. 12:59 PM: jhendler: scribe apologizes to pfps, will try again 1:00 PM: jhendler: RESOLVED The proposal of the chairs is to decide to release as soon as possible 1:00 PM: jhendler: two documents to the public: 1:00 PM: jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of language features, along 1:00 PM: jhendler: the lines of Deborah's proposal. 1:00 PM: jhendler: NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to use to refer to this 1:00 PM: jhendler: named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. . 1:00 PM: jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of language features 1:00 PM: jhendler: These documents will not contain the actual syntax, but should enable 1:00 PM: jhendler: people from the public to understand what they van expect. 1:00 PM: jhendler: Consensus w/4 abstains (DanC, Pfps, Jos, Ian) 1:00 PM: jhendler: s/van/can 1:01 PM: DanC: hmm... what was the disposition of item 4? any actions/next steps? 1:01 PM: pfps: I view this as even further from the RESOLVED. I don't remember anything about the characteristics of the documents. 1:02 PM: jhendler: pfps - I heard Guus say that he was moving what was written in the agenda - if you think this was something else - bring it up on phone. 1:03 PM: jhendler: Pfps - suggests this is not what we resolved. 1:04 PM: jhendler: pfps - suggest we go back to earlier document on features and turn that into the main document (w/something like Deb's document as level) 1:04 PM: jhendler: Deb - features shoudl be subset of what is in larger document. 1:06 PM: jhendler: scribe asks for clarification - not sure point of disagreement... 1:11 PM: jhendler: (scribe points out that he was involved in discussion and missed much) 1:11 PM: jhendler: debate is over what to release soon. 1:14 PM: jhendler: frank - okay, how about if we start from DAML+OIL as the second document - and note specifically the changes. 1:19 PM: Zakim: -JHendler 1:19 PM: jhendler: my phone just cut out -- will reconnect fast as I can - DanC can you scribe for 2 min till I reconnect or dial in some other way (phone is dead at the moment) 1:20 PM: DanC: [missed some...] 1:20 PM: DanC: PeterPS: if we just put out DAML+OIL with caveats, that will gloss over the semantic layering discussions, a disservice. 1:21 PM: Zakim: +JHendler 1:23 PM: Zakim: -ChrisW 1:26 PM: Zakim: -Marwan.Sabbouh 1:30 PM: jhendler: Guus - amend that our resolution remove the words "without syntax" and that we come to a specific proposal next telecon 1:31 PM: DanC: er... "clearly an action on everybody" is a contradiction in terms, to me ;-) 1:31 PM: jhendler: resolved - do as Guus said. 1:32 PM: jhendler: (extending the above -- 1:32 PM: JosD: howso DanC? 1:32 PM: jhendler: RESOLVED: 5) Language feature documents 1:32 PM: jhendler: (chair, 20 min.) 1:32 PM: jhendler: The proposal of the chairs is to decide to release as soon as possible 1:32 PM: jhendler: two documents to the public: 1:32 PM: jhendler: 1. one document describing a named subset of language features, along 1:32 PM: jhendler: the lines of Deborah's proposal. 1:32 PM: jhendler: NOTE: the decision on what kind of term to use to refer to this 1:32 PM: jhendler: named subset (e.g. "level", "module") is postponed. . 1:32 PM: jhendler: 2. a second document describing the full set of language features 1:33 PM: jhendler: scribe for next week - Peter (and his echo) 1:33 PM: jhendler: ============== 1:33 PM: Zakim: -M.Smith 1:33 PM: Zakim: -Evan.Wallace 1:33 PM: DeborahMc: please send requests for updates to the compliance doc 1:33 PM: jhendler: Adjourned. 1:33 PM: Zakim: -PeterPS 1:33 PM: Zakim: -LynnT 1:33 PM: Zakim: -RudigerK 1:33 PM: Zakim: -SDecker 1:33 PM: Zakim: -John.Stanton 1:33 PM: Zakim: -HermanT 1:33 PM: Zakim: -MDean 1:33 PM: Zakim: -NickG 1:33 PM: Zakim: -Ian.Horrocks 1:33 PM: Zakim: -GuusS 1:33 PM: Zakim: -Massimo 1:34 PM: Zakim: -JHendler 1:34 PM: Zakim: -DebM 1:34 PM: Zakim: -DanC 1:34 PM: Zakim: -JosD 1:34 PM: *** Signoff: DeborahMc () 1:35 PM: *** Signoff: JosD () 1:35 PM: *** nmg has left channel #webont (Client Exiting) 1:35 PM: *** Signoff: pfps () 1:38 PM: *** schreiber has left channel #webont (schreiber) 2:06 PM: Zakim: -FrankvH 2:06 PM: Zakim: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended -- Professor James Hendler [email protected] Director, Semantic Web and Agent Technologies 301-405-2696 Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab. 301-405-6707 (Fax) AV Williams Building, Univ of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/hendler
Received on Sunday, 19 May 2002 19:12:04 UTC